Jillian I always say fear comes from a lack of knowledge. The Grand Canyon for sure it was just it really just pushed me to believe that I could do anything and that I probably had the ability and the skills more than I thought I did. Our entire 22 foot long boat and both of us are inside a wave. That's how big the water is down there.
Loïc Good. All right. So whenever you're ready.
Jillian Oh, I'm ready. Go. I'm good. I'm ready. You're ready. Okay. Yeah.
Loïc Awesome. I'm always ready. So welcome, Julian, on the podcast. Amazing to have you live from British Columbia.
Jillian Yeah. Camp My Way. Thank you for having me. Bonjour.
Loïc Sure. Yeah. So it's a first. It's the night or the morning for you for the first. first time we have um an english uh episode i mean an episode full in english um and uh i think first time also yeah uh i'm doing it uh with the video so uh it's the the night of the experiments today awesome but um yeah i'm really really happy to have you uh on the podcast today uh we're gonna to talk, I guess, about outdoorsy stuff because that's what you are clearly into. And well, maybe as an introduction, you can tell us what you're doing now and where you're coming from.
Jillian Sure. So I'm Gillian Brown. I'm a Canadian photographer, adventurer, writer, now CEO and lead guide for an organization or a nonprofit. I guess I should say, called Camp My Way, which is a wilderness well-being program for first responders, veterans, and youth affected by PTSD. So that's where I'm at now. That's the very brief, quick intro to me.
Loïc And so what's your relationship with PTSD? And maybe can you also walk us through very briefly what's PTSD?
Jillian Sorry. Sure. So PTSD stands for post-traumatic stress disorder. It goes by a number of different terms nowadays. OSI, so operational stress injury, is what it's referred to in the first responder world now. PTSI, PTS, all sorts of things. Essentially, all it is is a buildup of energy within our nervous system that's trapped and isn't getting moved. and anything can kind of cause it. Everyone says it's trauma, but to every person, trauma is something different. Like I said, it's essentially just whatever energizes us. Our nervous system doesn't know the difference between being shot at or having surgery. Our nervous system just reacts and knows, okay, danger, fear, and energy is released. and we're now in this day and age not moving that energy like we used to or like animals do where they start shaking and shake it off um back in the day they called it shell shock and um sometimes they even shoot you back um when soldiers would would start shaking in their boots or trembling um because it was just such a stigma and still is so we just trap all that energy and don't know how to move it or aren't given the tools anymore with it, which is what happened when I was told of my diagnosis of PTSD. After leaving an abusive relationship and ending up homeless in a tent and contemplating suicide, I went to a counselor and I was just told it sounds like you have PTSD and I wasn't even given what PTSD stood for let alone tools ways to manage it anything to get through it was come back next week let's talk some more and I was sent back to my tent in the woods by myself more confused and scared than I was when I first went to the counselor, which unfortunately is kind of how it goes with most and for most people, especially our first responders. Yeah. So here at camp, we give that education that I just kind of shared, as well as share the tools that I learned and that the founder and my partner, Terence Kosakar learned through our own experiences of trying to, and putting it, sorry, trying to is the wrong word, putting in the work to save our own lives through being outdoors, fitness, and moving that energy. Basically, we just share all of what we learn, our daily routines with those who come up to camp.
Loïc Wow. Well, I was familiar with PTSD, but only applied for veterans. So people who actually went to war and were getting shot at, basically. That's the context in which most of the time I heard PTSD. But it's pretty interesting to hear, because at least in Europe, I don't know, in Canada or North America, but I have the feeling it's not, it's still not something we were really open to talk about. You know, it's, yeah, even within the veterans community, it's like, I watched an interview of a former sniper from the British army recently, and he was saying basically even, he was saying he was ashamed still today to say, you know, he was affected by PTSD. So I think it's pretty amazing. Yeah. Zoe, go ahead.
Jillian No, that's the big thing, is that there's still such a stigma around it. And again, I hate using that word. And a lot of people are like, it's not stigmatized. They give, there's so many things out there, especially during COVID. There's so many things online that you can read about. But just reading about something or going to a counselor and talking about what you've been through doesn't move that energy that's trapped in you. And you go and read on these platforms and things. They're not giving tools. They're making you go back onto social media and read some more and be on a device or a platform that is the number one cause of mental illness or PTSD or self-doubt. It's the worst place for self-care you could possibly go. Yeah, it's really, it's sad that it's such a kind of frowned upon thing. And it's not so much needing to talk about these things. It's just that we need education around these things. And that needs to start when we're kids, we need to be given these tools on how to manage not just emotions, but, um, experiences and, um, yeah. And, and how to end our energy essentially. And if we start doing that, like the Buddha, like Buddha says, or the Dalai Lama, if we can teach kids to meditate 10 minutes a day, we can have world peace in one generation. And it's totally true. You can change a world by just teaching some breathing and a little bit of fitness and making it a ritual in a kid's life for the rest of their life. It'll completely change the world.
Loïc it's gonna be it would be probably more useful than most of the stuff at least i had to learn at school i definitely agree with you on that yeah the things that i learned the most in school
Jillian they don't even teach anymore in school there aren't isn't art anymore in school a lot of schools there aren't gym classes there's no outdoor education classes that's for sure yeah like those are the things that i remember that i took away from school not like mathematics like crazy mathematics i know how to add and subtract that was great but i learned that
Loïc in grade three yeah i agree fully and on um uh regarding camp my way when did it become uh become obvious for Terrence and yourself that you had to start Camp My Way and structure it the way you
Jillian are the way the way it is structured today so Terrence Kosakar founded Camp My Way in 2016 after being a first responder and have at the Olympics I should start there and dealing with the Georgian athlete who passed away on the loose track. He was the first responder on scene. And it wasn't that one incident that caused PTSD in him. It was the buildup of all of his life experiences of being in organized crime prior to that, being in prison, being in fights, being a first responder, a firefighter, a paramedic, all of these things, and having no knowledge or education, as we just touched upon, about this energy buildup. So when this athlete died, and the world moved on immediately, and he didn't, he didn't understand why. And in a number of years, he ended up losing everything, his family, his home, his careers, and found himself homeless. and when he went to commit suicide he he says that he jumped but he ended up waking up up here at his camp in the back country of British Columbia and it was just him and that was it there was no power there was no food he had to figure out how to survive on his own and he had to put in the work to save his own life and after doing that and figuring out that he needed to do fitness and he needed to live off the land and fish and hunt with the native community here and learn to forgive and find gratitude for everything. That's when he realized he needed to open up his doors to other first responders because there was nobody who was doing that. And he knew what saved him and he could share that life with others. And my story is different but similar um I I moved out to British Columbia after finishing university totally great upbringing amazing family still in my life in 2010 and fell in love with this musher a dog sled company dog sledding and we started a life together five and a half years started our own dog sled company, rescued dogs from all over Canada. And unfortunately, that life, that relationship was abusive from basically the get go. So after five and a half years, I ended up having to leave, I had been hiding $300 in my camera bag. And I had to leave my entire life, my businesses, my love, my dogs, everything behind, and bought a tent for $60 from a woman by the side of the road and was homeless for seven months in this tent. And as I mentioned, that was where I, after I'm somewhere that I'm thinking I'm safe, thinking I should be now happy, um I can move on I was then having all of the emotions and everything implode and explode um within me and out of me um and didn't have any knowledge about what was going on went to a counselor and like I said was just told the term PTSD and not given any explanation and just sent back to my tent. I wasn't even asked like where I was living. Are you okay? Like I was just sent back to my tent and, um, grab my dog and let her off her leash and just the one dog that I had with me. Um, and I just started following her for the whole day after that. And like, where's she going? Like running around all over the forest and the mountains. And when I got back to my tent that night, I actually slept for the first time in who knows how many years. And the next day I got up and did it again. I let her off the leash and just followed her all day. And I did that for quite some time and realized that I was finally sleeping and my emotions were starting to settle and connected that it was living in that present moment of following my dog and just thinking about where are we going next? What do you, what's she following? Oh, this is so fun. And, and moving that energy through fitness and fresh air and not focused on reliving the things that I had been through and worried about where I was going in the future. It was just living in that moment. Um, and it allowed me to start to connect back to myself and move that energy and heal. And it's not like the past, it's not like you forget the past. It's not like the things you've been through are gone. You still have that energy. It's just moving it so that you can get through it. So you're not fixated on it. Um, and started to incorporate more fitness within that, those hikes. Um, and basically Terrence and I were doing the exact same things. Um, we'd started to push ourselves. We weren't connected yet, but we both started to push ourselves physically and mentally in different degrees because we knew we could from overcoming what we had. We knew that we could use that energy rather than a hindrance to excel ourselves and accomplish things using that gratitude and that forgiveness to push limits and push ourselves and believe in ourselves. For me, doing that world first and a Canadian first, these crazy expeditions. And for him, he was flipping tires all over the mountains to bring awareness to PTSD. And it was just, it was ended up being a mutual friend within this area of British Columbia. Saw we had both been doing the same thing and utilizing the same tools. And yet we hadn't connected yet. And they put us in touch and I never left. As soon as I showed up here, I never left. It was just this perfect bit of, this is what we need to be doing this, sharing this with the world. Um, these tools, cause they obviously work and, uh, yeah, it's just, like I said, we just, we just, it's not a program. It's a way of life. You have to commit to saving your own life. You can't expect us to heal you.
Loïc wow it's a super powerful message and the i mean your your story uh i knew a bit the one of of terence because i i checked some articles i i i read about you know the whole uh olympic story and how basically the whole organization it looks like asked everyone who was on the scene to just move forward and keep it quiet not to have an impact on the the whole event you know yeah um But, yeah, I mean, your story is pretty amazing. And the first question that comes to mind is how were you able to basically, because, you know, we talk about resilience in this podcast and how determination is, I mean, can basically make people move mountains. how were you able to switch from the situation you just described being homeless quite young you know living for seven months in a tent to uh doing crazy expeditions uh doing you know for the first time something that was never done before and maybe you can tell us more about it i mean how did you operate that mindset shift, which is absolutely amazing.
Jillian I think a big part of it is the way I was raised. And I feel like a big part of why I was struggling so much was that I was so disconnected through being in that relationship and being so fixated on survival in that relationship that I, I had pushed my passions aside, my, my self-care um and and how i was raised which was very i mean i was very hard working in that business and in that life you have to be and that's really what got me through was just i was naturally moving a lot of energy every day um in that in that place with the dog sledding and tending to them and every day i would go down and i don't know where this came from but every day i would go down and I'd rub my face in the neck fur of the dogs and give them their morning snuggles. And I would always say to them, I'm thankful it was me there and not somebody else, because somehow I knew I was going to get through and maybe another person wouldn't. And I have no idea where that came from, but I always look back at my grandparents and my great grandparents and my parents and just the determination they instilled in me. And that drive of a hard work ethic. And it's not always easy, but if you put in the work, you're going to be able to accomplish it, to problem solve and get your way through it. Growing up, I was living in Manitoba in the prairies of Canada, Central Canada for half the year. And that's where I went to school. in the other half the year growing up I was in northwestern Ontario on a small island with my great-grandparents grandparents parents cousins would come visit um so you're on a little island with old cabins so you have to learn how to work with what you have and put in a lot of work to get to where you want to go and um I think kind of connecting all of that once I was in the tent and what was working to make me feel okay is how I got through that. And a lot of other people believed in me that I had never met before. Strangers, a stranger really, is how I ended up leaving that relationship because I finally was seen by somebody. They didn't know about my partner at the time. They didn't know about the dog sled business. there was no affiliation. It was just, they acknowledged my presence and existence. And I felt like I hadn't been seen for so long. I was just this guy's girlfriend. And that really gave me a lot of confidence to leave. Um, and when I started to look at myself that way, like I was the only one that was, I guess, judging myself in that context. Um, it kind of, it just shifted mindset. Yeah, a lot of the lessons were learned through through experiences with wildlife and all sorts of things. Yeah, just finding that belief. And then once I started to showcase that belief in myself on social media platforms, then new people were coming into my life and connections and new opportunities um and that's how I ended up meeting Jamie Sharp um who's who I did the tandem sea kayak the world first down the Grand Canyon with um he brought me on to go and document paddling with orcas in the Johnson Strait um off the British Columbia coast yeah so we were out there for a week paddling with orcas and sea lions and all this marine wildlife um we ended up with a couple of grizzly bears it was amazing but um after on that trip jamie's like yeah so i have this idea about a tandem sea kayak taking it down the grand canyon just trying to show the diversity of a tandem sea kayak i'm like that sounds crazy but also i'd totally do that with you and come a week out from this trip he had already arranged a partner to go this like girlfriend of his a week out they break up he calls me he's like so how do you feel about this we leave in a week you kind of expressed some interest a little while ago uh like okay jamie sharp i'm in and i never had these like crazy ambitions to be do world first or canadian first or any of these things but i wasn't gonna say no to those opportunities but having somebody else believe that I could help them accomplish their goal really allowed me to believe even more in myself that I could do that thing too. And that's what got me on that trip for sure and got me through it was the fact that this amazing paddler who had seen me paddle, so obviously knew and trusted that I could help him achieve a goal that he had, that gave me a lot of confidence on that
Loïc trip, even though I was completely terrified. Well, that's a very good point. And, you know, the fact that you went in full, even though you were terrified, what was terrifying for you, maybe for the people who don't know about that trip, you know, what was the extent of the madness?
Jillian Yeah. So a hundred thousand people go down the Grand, go through the Colorado River, through the Grand Canyon, go down the Colorado River, sorry, through the Grand Canyon every summer. So in like a three month span, a hundred thousand people go down it. So people think, it's not that big a deal, but those people are in rafts and rafts are designed to go down the Colorado River a little bit differently than a 22 foot long fiberglass sea kayak that is self-supported so has 12 days worth of food and gear within it no raft along um because it's fully self-supported trying to roll that thing was impossible for jamie um yeah so that's part of it when you're the grand canyon is rated on a totally different scale than other rivers because the water is so huge there's so much of it um it's rated on a one to ten scale and it's based upon the likelihood that a raft will flip so there's like class 10 rapids that you're going down and they're just massive and to give you an idea of it we're in a 22 foot long boat two people and we go through one wave and because you're in a such a long boat that doesn't have any flex to it unlike a little play boat a small like six foot long kayak that would ride over a wave and like coast and stay on top a long boat like that the bow juts in to a wave and the bat kind of like rides over it it doesn't go like up like that it's just gonna go straight in and then kind of go over So the person in the bow, me, is under the water a lot of the time. And on one wave in particular that somebody got a photo of, our entire 22-foot-long boat and both of us are inside a wave. That's how big the water is down there.
Loïc And you said you can't roll the kayak, right? If you're getting flipped?
Jillian No, we tried rolling it at the very start. um where we where you put in there's a nice kind of pool um flat water and there was no way it was being rolled um yeah so we swam once the second day in a really small little rapid where we just weren't really paying much attention and we got we hit a whirlpool and it flipped us over um and I didn't want to swim again after that and that was just little um and and then in one rapid we ended up over but with the help of a lateral wave it helped upright upright it and jamie's just such a skilled and incredible paddler too um but that was it we didn't swim other than that second day which was pretty incredible um we even had our rudder break in one of the biggest waves It broke and shot us left. And we still stayed upright. It was terrifying. I got out and looked back and Jamie was just white, like a complete ghost. I'm like, holy shit. Okay, it's okay that I'm completely terrified and patting myself down, feeling like my helmet's gone and my PFD is gone. Like, do I still have skin? Like, Jesus.
Loïc Wow. So in the end, would you say that what you were terrified about was justified now that it's behind you?
Jillian Oh, yeah, I think that was smart fear. I'm not a whitewater paddler. I never have claimed to be a whitewater paddler. So for me, I always say fear comes from a lack of knowledge for the most part. So we fear the dark because it's unknown. We don't know what's out there, what's in the dark. we can do a whole bunch of research and know okay there could be a lion there could be a bear there could be this that a person but you can't see it so there's that fear so for me I didn't know a lot about the Grand Canyon I didn't know a lot about whitewater paddling um so for me there was it was a fear and there's natural fear because there's potential for death because of the unknown factors within whitewater paddling. You don't necessarily know what's going to happen if you end up swimming in huge water like that. You could end up swallowing water. You could hit your head, right? So you have that natural fear, which keeps you really aware and for the most part, pretty safe. If it's controlled fear, right? If you let fear take over you, then you're out of control completely and you're going to act irrationally. You're not going to think properly through it And you're probably not going to make smart decisions. And then you're probably going to end up living that fear because of it. So luckily, because I had somebody who I knew knew what they were doing, it was a controlled level of fear. With it.
Loïc Wow.
Jillian And that's usually with all of my expeditions, whether I'm up in Alaska with 23 grizzly bears, all of these things, it's kind of a controlled fear. and more of like an adrenaline than fear because there's knowledge behind it.
Loïc Yeah. So a fear that's driving you instead of completely blocking you from moving forward.
Jillian Yeah. Yeah, you have to have it. You got to have fear to keep you safe too, to be smart, right?
Loïc Yeah. In some context. Yeah, I like what you said. Helps you staying aware of what's happening and staying sharp. uh great so what would you say um because i guess yeah it was the first like um big expedition you were doing following your you know this difficult period of your life you went through what would you say were the key learnings about yourself you took away from that uh trip uh that one really
Jillian pushed me to believe that i was able to do anything and i kind of swore we put in on my birthday and I swore that um I I would kind of say yes to any opportunity that came about from that point on because if you believe that you can get through it then I felt like you could get through it if we had if we had failed if the boat had broke we would have hiked we would have had to hike out we would have figured it out um kind of thing I always just believed that there wasn't that worry of like death um and yeah I had done a trip before that uh um I traveled across Canada and lived in my jeep for 77 days um a year after I had left that relationship so just prior to this this trip and um that really was what taught me a lot about starting to share my story um but also learning from nature and being pushed a lot further because I so many people thought that just that was crazy for like a young woman to go and travel and live in her jeep alone I didn't take my dog and I didn't have any plans on the trip at all anytime anybody told me to go somewhere I didn't go there because I wanted it to be and needed it to be fully for me and learned a ton of lessons from snowy owls and squirrels and all sorts of things. But yeah, the Grand Canyon for sure, it really just pushed me to believe that I could do anything and that I probably had the ability and the skills more than I thought I did.
Loïc Wow. Yeah, I guess, I mean, I really love the message because, you know, So what I take away from what you just shared is in spite of your fears, that you were able to go fully in and that it's also the whole story was made possible because of a connection that appeared with someone else. And I think that's also the beauty of what you're describing. From Camp My Way today with Terrence to that first in the Grand Canyon, it's also the outcome of great relationships that you were able to build I'm just amazed at how inspiring the whole story is
Jillian Thank you Yeah
Loïc Sorry, go ahead
Jillian No, go, I want to hear your next question
Loïc I was about to say if we push the fast forward button up until now, Camp My Way. So what is it you, I mean, you said basically that this is, you know, you're trying to, I mean, you're not trying, you're helping people getting back in control of their life or saving their own life, as you said, especially for first responders. But what is it exactly that you're doing? So how do they get in touch with you? And what sort of experience do you offer them? and what's the usual outcome?
Jillian For sure. We get connections all different ways. Before COVID, both Terrence and I would do presentations all over. He's traveled all over the world doing them. Connections through these crazy expeditions, paddling across America too. And then social media and the Cat My Way website. All sorts of different ways people are finding out about us and camp my way. Um, and, uh, camp it, like I kind of mentioned, it's a week to 30 day program for now. Um, and we're just sharing our way of life. So waking up early and going and doing breathing by the fire, we call it five by fives, five breaths in five breaths out five times to control the mind okay to settle the mind to start the day and we do a body scan so you connect with every part of your body you wouldn't fly a plane without having checked your plane over right yeah and then you wouldn't fly the plane if you're not in the right mindset either that's basically what we are we're both the plane and the captain we got it before we start the day before we go do things, before we operate, we need to make sure that both the body and the mind are right and good. And that's how we start. Then we go for a big walk around, get that fresh air, move a little bit of energy. We come back and we do some journaling. And that's to write down something that you forgive or someone, it can be yourself, family member, but to start to move that, start to connect to forgiveness and then gratitude and a goal for the day, an intention for the day. And it can be something super small, like do it, clean your dishes kind of thing. Something that, yeah, you can basically achieve so that every day you feel like you're accomplishing something. The big thing that I like to say is once you can connect that forgiveness to being thankful for what you were forgiving for that experience, for what that person did, that's when you ultimately find healing within that moment. Because everything that we go through, whether it's good or bad, creates the person that we are. And if we utilize it in a good means, then it's making us grow. So being in an abusive relationship, I never held any anger towards the person. I was with that person for a reason, because I loved them. And forgiving that situation and then being thankful for it creating the person I am now and being able to share my experiences and my tools allows me to never to not have any sort of anger towards that experience in any way or hold any sort of anything against that person or any of it to be thankful for that experience um that's that's the biggest eventual goal of that ever with teaching um forgiveness and gratitude and then through the day while they're up here while campers are here it's being outdoors um fitness we always do fitness um so move that energy moving the tire right yeah yeah yeah we have our 400 pound tire that we flipped up a couple mountains so we make people flip that a few times and um go camp for the week so that you're you find you learn to find comfort within the uncomfortable, which is huge because we can't tell people, well, the ultimate cause of your stresses is the environment to which you're in. So just change your environment. But realistically, most people can't just pack up and move out of a city and go and camp. But you can learn to find tools to feel comfortable within that uncomfortable situation. And if you can learn to find comfort when it's pouring rain and all you have to sleep under is a tarp and you're soaked and kind of shivering and you're so thankful for that warm meal, then when you go back to your home and you have a nice hot shower and you can read your book and you have your TV and Netflix, you still have that subconsciously in the back of your mind that if you lost all of it, you'd still be able to survive. If you really look deep into it, it's really hard for people to connect to that at that time. But when you're on your hands and knees crawling through the mud, wanting somebody to save you because you feel like you're on death's doorstep, that's when you connect back to the fact that, oh, I know how to set up a park. oh okay I can just boil some water I can start a fire okay I can I think I can maybe maybe get through it it takes being on your deathbed really to connect that but if we can allow that to be in the back of people's minds at least it does help ultimately in the long run hopefully um yeah like like I said before it was Terrence and I connecting that we had to save our own lives and that's what we try to teach here. We share all the tools, but ultimately it's up to every camper to implement them. And you have to turn a routine. It takes 21 days of doing something for that routine to become ritual. And that's the ultimate goal. You have to do it every single day. The most important days to do those routines, whether it's yoga, we don't teach yoga, but if yoga is your thing that moves your energy or journaling or whatever works for you you have to do it on the good days and the bad days and the good days are even more important because it makes you feel okay I don't need to do it today I'm okay because then when on the on the bad day it's even harder to get motivated to do it um yeah so it's like we're going out on an expedition for me it's like taking a person out on any of my expeditions, except this is like the most timid of expedition you could possibly go on because you can stay at camp here if you want. If you're terrified to go out in a tent, then we just stay here. We don't want to make people terrified. We want them to learn comfort, like I said.
Loïc And so do you allow people to use their smartphones? Because you mentioned, you know, most of the time it's the environment, but I also believe it's, you know, all the disturbances, I mean, all the noise around this. So no smartphones.
Jillian There's no cell service up here. We're on Wi-Fi on this. We don't have cell service. We don't have phones. We have our satellite phone so that we can call in case of emergency. But yeah, we don't. The Wi-Fi, it's just for Terrence and I. And when campers are here, we're disconnected too. So it's great for us as well because we connect back too. It's not like we're on our devices and making them watch and feel like, oh, my addiction. It's like watching somebody who's coming off of cocaine. There's somebody sitting next to them snorting. That's just torture.
Loïc We're not...
Jillian There just isn't any of that in sight. And when you're out camping, you don't even think about it anyways. You're so out in that moment. And that's how you learn appreciation is to be away from these things. People get sad, they cry. Like grown men, RCMP officers, like 60-year-old RCMP officers were out here crying the other day and they miss their family and they've never cried in their life and they're crying. That's one of the most beautiful parts for us is like people come up to support a brother that's suffering and they end up realizing they're actually the ones that are in the worst state. They just never would admit it because they have that mentality of we don't talk about these things and especially if they're in that older time set and if their parents were within military or first responder community as well it's even more ingrained in their mind that we don't share these things and then when you come up to an environment where everyone's sharing and everyone feels comfortable and safe those walls are broken down and crushed pretty quick and those tears and emotions start flowing i guess And then they all find gratitude. They all immediately like, I can't wait to get back home. They're all, excuse my language, but they're all often bitching about their families or their wives or, and they admit like, it's not their wife that's doing anything wrong. It's that they're in a bad headspace and they just don't want to hear it. and by the time three days in they're like i can't wait i'm so grateful for my wife i can't wait to see her and that's a big part of coming up here and getting away it's just getting away from that environment and reflecting and realizing oh my gosh i'm so grateful for that
Loïc environment too yeah i mean yeah i was i was about to say also with the you know the the the emotion i guess the longer you shut them down uh the bigger when they finally come out uh the the yeah the i mean the bigger it is you know and yeah i can relate to the fact that when you leave comfort or things you don't even realize you should be grateful for that's that's also a super powerful moment when you're like well actually that's what i left behind and it's It's really amazing what I live being.
Jillian That's one of my favorite things about expeditions. And I feel like a lot of adventurers and people who actually like push their outdoor limits for long periods too. I'm sure like you just mentioned, you find that you're grateful for like the most simplistic of things like a flushing toilet or like just the access to like hot water so fast. All these like the most minute details. details um or for me when like most expeditions your food's often like kind of the same texture like kind of mushy generally like oats for breakfast a soggy granola bar for lunch and then and then dehydrated food for dinner so it's all kind of the same consistency so you really get a you really appreciate crunchy food when you're off an expedition
Loïc That's right.
Jillian Not even fresh, it's just crunchy.
Loïc Yeah, for sure. I mean, as you said, when I came back from Nepal, I was like, water. I can just open, go in my apartment, open the tap and then have water that I can drink directly. No need to use a peel to clean it or anything, boil it or whatever. I can just drink water.
Jillian Right. which is um yeah yeah yeah on the Grand Canyon and then uh when I was on my trip paddling across America at 150 days you're on a river the whole time but you're on the most polluted rivers in North America so you can't just drink the water you can't even like I didn't even feel comfortable filtering it and putting chemicals in it I don't I don't generally put chemicals in my water anyways I always just filter with like a platypus gravity works. And I've always been fine just doing that. I'd rather not have chemicals in my body, but to have to haul water while you're on a river is like the most frustrating feeling. And you really connect to how bad we are tampering with our environment with that. So you're just like, I just want to drink this water and I now have to like, ration what i have to figure out when i can get more somewhere and have to deal with all my gear while you're solo like all those things um yeah for sure water is such a a ridiculous appreciation and you yeah i understand a lot of the third world countries when it comes to that
Loïc for sure and I would actually be surprised we just mentioned both of us the things that stood out for us thanks to our expeditions that we are really grateful for what are usually the what are usually the things people are the most surprised with when they go through the Camp My Way programs if there is any you know like if most of the time it's I don't know one one thing in particular where they are surprised or discover something that seems obvious but they never saw before
Jillian for sure it's not the camp it's not the tools that we're sharing it's that they're connecting to some to themselves and they didn't expect that like I mentioned okay in particular we had this We had a group of first responders up in October and they were all from the same area. They had all been involved in the same incident. A really, really tragic bus rollover at a glacier in the Icefields Parkway in Alberta. And they had all been first on scene, RCMP officers, sheriffs, a firefighter. And they all came out to support the one of them who had actually spoke up and said, I'm really affected by this. I've been diagnosed with PTSD. I've been given meds and I'm struggling. And his brothers came up to help just to be there as support for him and to learn tools so that they could better support him once they're back at their station and working together. And those men were the ones that their surprise was, like I said, within a couple of days, they're crying and they're looking at us being like, I don't know why I've never cried in my life. I don't know why I'm crying. And they're writing and they're then they read out their journal entries to us around the fire in the evening, we all read and share. And it's like, I never connected these things before. Like I have fear of dying because I haven't spent enough time with my daughter or like, I see I see dead people kind of thing like these crazy things that they were just shocked that because they're not in an environment where it's stigmatized to talk about where they have fear to talk about where they um are uncomfortable to talk about that they all of a sudden are out here in this natural environment which nature has no judgment it's a big reason why i found so much healing being homeless in that tent was I was not in a place where there was judgment. You're accepted. Everything in nature is accepted, whether it's perfect or imperfect. And it's allowed to flourish and grow and nature works together to get that imperfect plant, animal, whatever it is, through it or to utilize it in a different way. And that's the most surprising thing for every camper is that they connect to that a different part of themselves that they didn't even know existed before um same with when we've had youth up here the youth when we we go and summit one of the mountains and the whole way up they're like i can't do this like they're stopping all the time i can't do this no there's no way i can do this and then they get to the top and they're like holy shit i never thought i could do this and uh yeah it's like those little little surprising moments of just like, if you believe in yourself, for one, but yeah, just connecting to self is the most surprising thing people find out here.
Loïc And, you know, it makes me think what you said earlier, that it's probably also something we should learn, you know, earlier as kids, you know, how do you do that actually? Because it's a bit, I mean, it's not a shame, but you're like, you know, if you can only do that at 60 years old and you realize that all your life you've been, you know, putting your emotions behind because you know you're coming from the family with military i mean ties to the military or something that makes no sense you know you're like i mean what if you were able to use those emotions um earlier in your life you know what what would have been your life
Jillian in that case there's so many things like the education system you look at it what what are we teaching our kids in school we're teaching them like math yeah these there's important things maths, like science, there's important things. But how about teaching them life skills and emotional well-being and mental well-being, but mental well-being is so attached to physical well-being. And there's not even that being taught in school anymore. That's the biggest thing. If you look at Germany, Germany in their first responders in 20 years have zero suicides because they start when their kids are young, they start them in the fire brigade program. So they begin to learn how to be a first responder and how to deal with the emotions, with the calls, with all of that when they're young. So by the time that comes a career choice, they know whether they are equipped to be a first responder or if they're not. And that's why they have zero rate. We last year in Canada alone had 235 suicides in our first responders that were documented. That's all that were documented and that were diagnosed with PTSD. That's it. That's probably a fraction of how many actually committed suicide in Canada, in our first responder community in one year. That's crazy. And that's because we're not giving tools or education when they're starting young to be able to manage this, this career, these careers, these stresses, but just life in general. Like, it just seems so obvious and so crazy that it's not something at this time frame. Like I said, the Dalai Lama says 10 minutes a day to meditate. if we can teach our kids to meditate for 10 minutes a day. And that meditation can be like, like we're going to be able to get a room of grade one-ers to sit still for 10 minutes, but it's not about sitting still. Do some breathing for all of two minutes. Breathe, just sit together and think about your breaths for two minutes. And then do some jumping jacks together, move some energy and make it every single day. Screw announcements. Screw like talking about what's coming up this week. and like that's a 30 minutes of trying to sit and listen to somebody over an intercom blah blah blah that's all I remember how about we skip that and let's just do a few jumping jacks a few push-ups do a little bit of breathing let's go around the circle talk about like do we forgive our mom for packing us a tuna sandwich when we ask for peanut butter and jelly like right but like that it's so simple and yet it it's not being done it's just crazy
Loïc I was about then to ask you know what how do you envision the the future of Camp My Way based on what you just said you know because now you're I mean obviously you're you know helping um a part of the community of people affected by PTSD but as we just said I mean the effort needed is probably, I mean, super, super, I mean, much more, much larger, right? So is it something you are considering, like, I don't know, expanding or starting to, you know, provide online courses? Why not for people, you know, outside of British Columbia? I don't know,
Jillian but what's the next step for you? Right. The big, for us, the big thing is trying to get people off of online. Unfortunately, this day and age, especially with COVID, we have had to be very much online and doing these kind of calls, which is so against what we want to be showcasing and stand by. But this summer, we do thanks to Surrey Firefighters Charitable Society, which is a firefighter um brigade or station um just south of us outside vancouver um they gave us a donation to start a youth program for the surrey youth community um okay so depending on our covet restrictions that's going to be going on this summer so that we can start sharing um more tools with youth slowly by getting them out of their environment. But I mean, ultimately, if we could change the system, that would be huge. But that's going to take more than just two people. That's going to take an entire world to start to believe in that. And Terrence and I say this all the time, but I never share it, but not enough people are suffering to do that yet. change doesn't happen till people go through the suffering and realize that something needs to change and not enough people are suffering yet the government was just giving everybody two grand free a month and nobody had to pay rent because of covid like nobody's suffering everyone's kind of celebrating they got to stay at home and got free money from the government and didn't have to pay rent. Wow, what an amazing year. Yeah, I'm stuck at home and that's kind of mentally frustrating, but there wasn't a lot of other stresses involved. So nope, there's not a ton of suffering yet. Come a year from now, let's see where everybody's at because there's no more money coming from the government. Your kids are still stuck at home with you. You don't know how to teach them. You still don't have a job. And eventually you're going to have to start paying rent again or you're going to be homeless. Let's see where you're at when that all happens. And maybe then the education system or the government or the parenting will change a little bit. And we'll see that maybe these kids will be the kids to not have suicide in the future. Yeah. It's kind of a hundred year goal.
Loïc yeah yeah but i think you know i'm a big believer in the fact that all the big changes are actually initiated by small initiatives um or started by small initiatives uh that are truly impactful and from what i could see and you know the the passion with which you're sharing what you're doing at camp my way uh it's it's what you guys are doing so again uh for me it's you know really interesting to see what's happening on the other side of the Atlantic on that topic. Pretty inspiring. I actually never heard of something similar to that in Europe. So at least definitely not in France or Switzerland. But I'll check. Maybe, I don't know. I'll check. Maybe you guys will have to hire us
Jillian and come over to France and Switzerland. Come visit us. Come on over to Canada.
Loïc Definitely. Cool. well G and we're slowly but surely getting close to the end I was wondering if there is if there would be one message or one piece of advice from your intense experiences over the past few years that you'd like to share for people who might be affected with PTSD or not but generally people who are considering maybe changing their environment as you said, what would that be?
Jillian I think the biggest and easiest thing that I can suggest to anyone, no matter where they are, whatever environment they're in, situation they're in, is go for a walk. Go for a five-minute walk because you're removing yourself from the negative environment that you're in. Even if it's just a walk to the end of your driveway, go for a walk to the end of your driveway, go for a five-minute walk, and do your best to find a squirrel and have a conversation with a squirrel. because I can guarantee you that it's going to make you smile and laugh and you're going to look around and see if somebody's watching and then you're going to start to chuckle because like, man, if somebody were watching, they must think I'm completely insane right now. I'm having a conversation with a squirrel and you're going to laugh and it's going to make you happy. And maybe that squirrel will teach you the meaning of life like one did for me. Or maybe you'll be able to scream and yell and get some emotion out to that squirrel. Or maybe you'll feel a lot of compassion for the squirrel. But the ultimate goal is that you're getting some fresh air, you're moving some energy by going for that walk, and you're removing yourself from that little invite that negative environment for just a few minutes. And there's no excuse. And it's acceptable no matter where you are. If you're in a workplace, if you're in a meeting, and it's not going so well, it is completely okay to say I need to go for a walk for five minutes. And I'll be right back because if I don't, I'm going to fucking shoot all of you fuckers. Excuse my language, but that's where people get to. And if you just go for that five minute walk, take some breaths, but go get some fresh air and remove yourself from that environment, you're probably not going to get into an argument and lose your job or your family or whatever it is, right? There's no excuse to not do it get up get up in the morning go for a five minute walk when you go home at night if you're stressed and can't sleep go for a five minute walk like there's no excuse yeah i mean when you see the
Loïc time we spend on social media right um i guess five minutes invested in your well-being every day is actually largely feasible i would agree with you there's so many other things that i would
Jillian suggest like writing down forgiveness and all those things but everybody has excuses and all sorts of things but you can't have an excuse for five minutes of fresh air removing yourself from that environment that's negative and just moving some energy and then eventually it'll evolve 10 minutes because you're going to start finding a new walking route you're going to run into that squirrel that's your favorite that you named joe or whatever and he brings some friends next time it evolves pretty quick.
Loïc What was the name of your squirrel?
Jillian My squirrel didn't have a name, but he did save my life. Yeah.
Loïc Amazing. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, Jillian, for sharing with us your journey. Again, very, very inspiring to see what you were able to overcome and what you're doing now to share what you took away from those experiences. And yeah, well, I put in the description of the episode all the links to Camp My Way, your Instagram. Is there any other platform that people can either get in touch with you or just follow what you're doing?
Jillian Any social media is pretty easy to find us. Camp My Way is pretty easy to look up. It's on Facebook, Instagram, campmyway.com. My Instagram is Jillian A. Brown Photography. Again, you can find it through Camp My Way. You can hear lots of stories of adventure, see lots of photos, and share, hear tools, all sorts of things. And you can message me anytime. Anyone can. If you want to share too, if you want to connect, if you feel like you need to come to Camp My Way or just talk, People can reach out to myself or Terrence really easily through any of those platforms.
Loïc I can confirm that because that's how we got in touch. Actually, just Instagram. Yeah, totally. I'll put all of that in the episode description. Again, a big, big thank you for the time you took directly from Camp My Way, British Columbia. and I wish you all the best for the next step with Camp My Way and your next adventures.
Jillian Thank you so much for having me. It was an honor.
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